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Post by Timmir on Feb 6, 2014 15:15:36 GMT -5
Umm... Brenton. I hate to say this, but I have the same problem with this "class" that I had with the Godlings. They just don't fit with the setting of the RP, and more or less confirm that Gods of some form do exist in this world.
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Post by Emiryal ♕ on Feb 6, 2014 15:18:32 GMT -5
The mere existence of dwarves, elves, humans and all the other species could be said the same that they hint of the possibility. And elves with their magic could easily alter their appearance to look like this. If we removed all mention of the word "Gods" in it, would that be satisfactory?
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Post by Timmir on Feb 6, 2014 16:20:39 GMT -5
The mere existence of dwarves, elves, humans and all the other species could be said the same that they hint of the possibility. They could, but they aren't as much of a direct link to them as these Angels appear to be. Yes they could, and I have absolutely no problem with their appearance. I could see angel-looking characters roaming, my problem is with their background, speaking of which. Personally, I would like you to create an uncertainty about their past relationship with the gods. Either by having them believe that they were created by a dying race of gods, or something along the lines like that. Also, could you expand on what exactly The Heavens are. Are they an alternate plane like The Nether is, or is it something else entirely? And what about the Elders you mentioned? Are they the Gods that created the Fallen, or are they another sect of angels that exist in The Heavens? Also, how and why do they care for mankind? I just want you to expand on this, and try to make them more mortal then the castoff agents of the gods that they appear to be. |
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Post by Brenton on Feb 6, 2014 16:35:24 GMT -5
A "God" in the definition given or understood is any being who lives forever and creates life. An elf can technically fall under this category and therefore should be considered a god. Heck to the native americans the colonists were "gods" because of their technology.
I can't define every little detail perfectly though and there will always be an issue so I'm not sure how to please everyone anymore on this. Although the Elders aren't like the gods that are in most myths. They are more just creating and being jerks up there forgetting about everyone. Where exactly is the issue if you really think about it? As for the Heavens, it's similar to an alternate plane of existence similar to the Nether where very few can get to BUT it is one of the few that the Fallen cannot get to.
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Post by Brenton on Feb 6, 2014 16:36:59 GMT -5
And they aren't mortal, that's the whole point of this race is they don't die unless killed in battle. If you want an idea of what they are then look at Tashiel's form.
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Post by Emiryal ♕ on Feb 6, 2014 17:23:33 GMT -5
Personally, I would like you to create an uncertainty about their past relationship with the gods. Either by having them believe that they were created by a dying race of gods, or something along the lines like that. Also, could you expand on what exactly The Heavens are. Are they an alternate plane like The Nether is, or is it something else entirely? And what about the Elders you mentioned? Are they the Gods that created the Fallen, or are they another sect of angels that exist in The Heavens? Also, how and why do they care for mankind? I just want you to expand on this, and try to make them more mortal then the castoff agents of the gods that they appear to be. Leave doubt and uncertainty in it? Well gauging by all the questions you have about that, it tells me there is uncertainty about it. What isn't defined is open to myth or making it up for whatever your characters may or may not believe about them. The only change I see needed to satisfy this, is to say "They are believed to be created by..blah blah blah" Just that one line about age. To ensure uncertainty. Being so far back in origin I would imagine they would naturally already believe they were created by gods but there is no proof or any indication that it's true or false. |
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Post by Timmir on Feb 7, 2014 4:09:11 GMT -5
*sighs* Look Flame, how about this. When I wake up, I'll read through Tashiel's profile, and if I see no problem with it, then I'll drop my case. I just want you to understand why this is a very touchy area for me as a fan of these books.
Inheritance was never meant to be, and should never be about Gods and Deities, and their impact on the world. It's a world were people questioned if such deities or beings with such power actually exist, with the dwarves worshipping several deities while the elves are, for the most part, atheist. This was a type of thing that isn't commonly seen in most fantasy world, and makes it much more relatible to our own world. And when you take that away by outright confirming that Gods actually exist, you not only flip off the elves by outright saying that everything they believed in is wrong, but you also ruin any need to have a conflict of faith on a religious character.
Now I'm going to sleep before I continue on ranting about the same reasons why I didn't like the Godlings in the first place either. Then when I wake up, I'll read through Tashiel's profile were I hope my concerns will be unfounded.
Now good night everyone. *falls unconscious*
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Post by Emiryal ♕ on Feb 7, 2014 11:36:08 GMT -5
I feel like you completely ignored my post, but whatever.
Timmir, staff have worked hard on this race through many revisions to make sure it would fit in alright and not be an overpowered race, or break the very molecules of the book. And all I'm hearing from you is "screw you I don't care and I'm not even going to listen." Staff have made their decision on this already, the race IS staying.
Your arguments keep going in circles and are always the same, and you offer no solutions just complaints. That is in no way helpful. If you want to have some input on this we are glad to take suggestions for solutions and look at it. But to sit here and go in circles with you about it solves nothing.
I really don't see any difference in this besides the dwarves saying they were created from stone by their gods. And Palloni never said if what they believed was true or if they were miniature versions of elves or something else, he never defined the real truth only the belief. It is their belief, and the elves don't care and believe what they believe themselves. Fallen angels may believe they were cast down or created by gods but we never said which one nor did we mean to make it a fact. From the gist I get The Heavens are very much like The Nether and whomever kicked them out could've simply been a giant dragon like Ender or some other creature. What they believe and what is true very well and often is different than the truth. This description of them is what they believe not necessarily what is true. To define the full truth out would destroy any belief they had, and we might as well say the dwarves are miniature elves and ruin their beliefs too if we are going to do that. And doing that I'm pretty sure would ruin the book far more than making a new race with a new belief.
By creating this race we are NOT creating an over all truth to prove Alagsia has Gods or not. It's just another race with their own beliefs about existence. For crying out loud they could've evolved from birds for all we know and they had an epiphany that made them think they fell from Heaven! Like Darwin's theory of evolution just as it says we might have come from monkeys, but not everyone believes we were monkey's. And I think it's safe enough to say that most people who are religious would say we were God's creation. So really it's not that far fetched of an idea for the Fallen Angels to be similar and it still leaves room for atheists and other beliefs.
So if you would like to make some useful suggestions to improve this you are welcome to make them. But complaining without helping is doing no one any good.
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Post by Quetzal on Feb 7, 2014 12:01:28 GMT -5
We did have a long debate about this in the staff room, and I was actually arguing much as you are that ambiguity needs to be kept with regard to gods. As Emi just said, many humans in Alagaesia believe they were created by a god, so why not the fallen angels as well? We're in no way saying that the gods are or aren't real, and so long as no one goes around saying 'yeah my character definitely met a god and here is some convincing proof' it should be fine. No one's said whether or not there are gods in Alagaesia, and we'll keep it that way.
I guess the fact that we interpret this as 'the fallen angels are probably just going on blind faith here or they could be right' while you interpret it as definite proof of gods in Alagaesia shows that there would still be disputes in religious beliefs. I think all we need to do is make sure no fallen angel ever provides or receives strong evidence for or against the existence of gods.
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Post by Brenton on Feb 7, 2014 12:06:01 GMT -5
Just to be completely fair, I will leave Tashiel approved but not post with him until Timmir has gone through the form and been given a chance to give input in some way. I feel like this is the only way to show we are not tyrants and over ruling the members but to be honest I do agree with Emiryal about this going in circles thing.
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Post by Timmir on Feb 7, 2014 13:45:39 GMT -5
I feel like you completely ignored my post, but whatever. Timmir, staff have worked hard on this race through many revisions to make sure it would fit in alright and not be an overpowered race, or break the very molecules of the book. And all I'm hearing from you is "screw you I don't care and I'm not even going to listen." Staff have made their decision on this already, the race IS staying. Your arguments keep going in circles and are always the same, and you offer no solutions just complaints. That is in no way helpful. If you want to have some input on this we are glad to take suggestions for solutions and look at it. But to sit here and go in circles with you about it solves nothing. I really don't see any difference in this besides the dwarves saying they were created from stone by their gods. And Palloni never said if what they believed was true or if they were miniature versions of elves or something else, he never defined the real truth only the belief. It is their belief, and the elves don't care and believe what they believe themselves. Fallen angels may believe they were cast down or created by gods but we never said which one nor did we mean to make it a fact. From the gist I get The Heavens are very much like The Nether and whomever kicked them out could've simply been a giant dragon like Ender or some other creature. What they believe and what is true very well and often is different than the truth. This description of them is what they believe not necessarily what is true. To define the full truth out would destroy any belief they had, and we might as well say the dwarves are miniature elves and ruin their beliefs too if we are going to do that. And doing that I'm pretty sure would ruin the book far more than making a new race with a new belief. By creating this race we are NOT creating an over all truth to prove Alagsia has Gods or not. It's just another race with their own beliefs about existence. For crying out loud they could've evolved from birds for all we know and they had an epiphany that made them think they fell from Heaven! Like Darwin's theory of evolution just as it says we might have come from monkeys, but not everyone believes we were monkey's. And I think it's safe enough to say that most people who are religious would say we were God's creation. So really it's not that far fetched of an idea for the Fallen Angels to be similar and it still leaves room for atheists and other beliefs. So if you would like to make some useful suggestions to improve this you are welcome to make them. But complaining without helping is doing no one any good. I'm sorry Emi, I did mean to give you such an opinion of me. After a bit of an internal debate, I decided to just let it pass. When I saw this pop up, I had no idea that staff actually discussed about this and didn't want to see this type of thing go through unchallenged. Again, I'm sorry for just complaining. If I had a proper solution for the problems I have with this, I would of suggested it. Yet because I don't and everyone else seems to be fine with it, I'm just going to have to deal with it. And Brenton, I should apologize to you too. In retrospect, the problems I have with this race are pretty minor and it's not like your going to go power hungry with this race. I just wanted you to understand exactly why I have problems with this race and ended up complaining about the same thing over and over again instead of giving some constructive criticism. So, I'm sorry for the problems I have caused you and I'm going to drop my case (even though there are some things that cause my eye to slightly twitch when reading through Tashiel's profile). Again, with the threat of repeating myself again, I'm sorry for just complaining without taking the time to try to think of some solution that could work. |
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Post by Emiryal ♕ on Feb 7, 2014 14:19:19 GMT -5
Thank you Timmir. And yes we did heavily discuss it, most new changes to the site are discussed in length before anything is done about it. Those conversations are in the staff room that is hidden to anyone who isn't on staff. So I can see why that would've been a missing factor. If you do come up with any solutions or ideas, you are welcome to voice them. We will hear you out and we seriously consider any ideas members bring to us. =)
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Post by Brenton on Feb 7, 2014 14:24:21 GMT -5
Timmir I wasn't actually upset that you brought up complaints about it just that it happened after I got it through the Staff Board and then tried to explain it and you were adamant that it was about gods. Yes it is but that is the beauty of religion, people believe what they want and nothing else so it wouldn't change the elves. Just like Brenton would probably accept that it was possible but I never did actually outline anything about the Elders or the Heavens because it is supposed to be shrouded in mystery.
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Post by Emiryal ♕ on Feb 7, 2014 20:11:42 GMT -5
Chopping this off and moving to support. I'd like to keep the races board fairly clean so it's easier to use. =)
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